add Falcon's Fury CLICK HERE .

any others?

Tranquil Flame appears to be adding genuine pace to litters bred in the x path thru full blood relations or littermates.

Going on the theme that you have outlined above, this mating has just been done

CLICK HERE

CLICK HERE
CLICK HERE

I would have to think the doubling of the Mandalass damline (Portrait line) would have to be considered a major player in the success of Poke The Bear and his littermates. It has produced quality when doubled for decades.

Legitimate question - not being a smart alec at all - but how is attributing the Mandalass/Portrait line being doubled to the success of said litter any more/less general than attributing the Tranquil Falme double to its success?

It's not just a Tranquil Flame double. It's always the first concentrated cross in the x path through a full brother/sister or full blood relation (not half or 3/4 brothers or sister). It's far more specific and intense.

Each to their own I guess.cheers.

I don't think it is a case of each to their own at all because fundamentally we aren't disagreeing.

This topic is (at least on the surface) pointing to a double of Tranquil Flame being the basis of certain dogs being fast. Like the litter containing Poke The Bear. I pointed out another possible angle which you said was too general. But isn't the whole thread too general then?

Of course in each litter mentioned there are other factors involved.

All the best mate and thanks for taking the time to reply.

When I first started looking at breeding many yrs ago I remember reading that there were only a handful of families that the best racehorses traced back to. So keeping that in mind I thought I wld look at the best greyhounds I knew of and trace back their pedigree to a common family in the x path.

I created a list at the time(which I haven't kept updated), and what I found was that the very best greyhounds of yesteryear were a part of litters that also traced back to predominantly only a handful of families as the first cross in the x path thru either full bros/sis or full blood relations combinations (repeat matings).

Slater: 11 x 11 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Temlee: 4 x 5 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Brett Lee: 9 x 9 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Awesome Assassin: 9 x 10 x10 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Path to Power : 11 x 10 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Leeapril Lass: 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Winifred Bale 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay
Blue Brew 4 x 6 in the primary in x to Brenda Gay

The 3 littermates thru Brenda Gay are That's Fine, Top Linen and Brenda's Daughter

Flying Amy: 4 x 6 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Pure Octane: 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Big Daddy Cool: 8 x 5 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Gay's Fancy: 4 x 5 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Miagi: 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Finlandia: 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Queen Lauryn: 7 x 7 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Give Me Five: 6 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Weetbix: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
True Temptation: 4 x 5 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
That's Just Me 6 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Ruff It 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Kalden Athena 6 x 8 in the primary in x to Temora Lee
Sensation Lee 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Temora Lee

The littermates thru Temora Lee are Temlee & Viola Lee

Web of Silence: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Worth Doing: 5 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bit Chili: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Cee Four: 9 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Dyna Lachlan: 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Prince of Tigers: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fantasy Fortune: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Bright Ebony: 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Big Moose: 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss
Fox Hunt 6 x 5 in the primary in x to Elsie Moss (thru Mister Moss & Honey Lass)

Their are 3 sets of littermates here. The most prominent thru Elsie Moss are Miller's Moss & Clay Moss, however in Bright Ebony case for example it's Mister Moss and Pearl Moss & Fox Hunt is different again as shown above.

Regal Thyme: 6 x 7 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Bob's One: 4 x 6 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Surgeon: 7 x7 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Little Denver: 4 x 3 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss
Cindeen Shelby: 7 x 7 in the primary in x to Zulu Moss

The full blood relations thru Zulu Moss are Chief Dingaan & Zimbabwe

Train A Journey 9 x 8 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Bearability 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Primo Uno 7 x 8 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Countess of Cork 8 x 10 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
National Queen 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Topline Doovee 10 x 8 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Shy Sarah 4 x 3 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Traction Control 8 x 7 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose
Fag Ash 4 x 4 in the primary in x to Venetian Rose

Mainly thru littermates Venetian Babe and Venetian Court, however Bearability & Fag Ash is thru other littermate Roman Earl

Kobble Rock 7 x 6 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Flashing Floods 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Most Awesome 7 x 7 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Miata 8 x 9 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Fedex 8 x 8 in the primary in x to Cursorial
Paw Licking 7 x 8 in the primary in x to Cursorial

Thru Littermates Zulu Moss and Riviera Moss

National Star 6 x 9 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
La Twist 7 x 8 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
Nellie Noodles 7 x 10 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
Whippy's Image 8 x 11 in the primary in x to Gorgeous Babe
It's a plane
Fernando Bale

Thru littermates/full blood relations Magic Babe, Early Jet, Gemdelina, Tell You Why, etc.,

As you can see I've tacked a couple of modern day dogs on the end without fully tracing them all back to their generation line nos.

Now there were other families coming thru in dribs and drabs without the same quality and/or nos, so initially these were the families that stood out in the x path as a primary cross thru full blood relations or littermates.

The reason behind starting the Tranquil Flame topic was that these 'cornerstone broods' of Aus greyhound racing will be getting replaced by other families as time goes on, and the need to identify the families that will be stepping up to take their place. For example it's pretty much impossible nowadays to get Brenda Gay as a primary cross in the x path thru litterm8's or FBR's, Venetian Rose is not far behind Brenda Gay.

As you say there are other factors involved with successful dogs other than x path, but no doubt in my mind if you want to breed that special type of city grade conveyance they need to be primarily and intensely linebred in x to preferably one of these types of families(cornerstone broods), as well as whatever else you may think important to include in a pedigree.

So no, this thread isn't general from the perspective of primary linebreeding in x to Tranquil Flame, in fact I'm saying it's very specific because of the primary linebreeding in x to Tranquil Flame, despite what it looks like at face value.

Depending on what this intensity in x gives up in the near future will determine Tranquil Flame's standing in Aus breeding
from this perspective. People talk about sires/dams being proven, it's bordering on irrelevant from choosing a sire for a dam imo. Primary linebreeding in the x path is one of a handful of things I look at as being a proven method of selecting sires for broods.

Hope I've made some sense.cheers.

Ryan,
That was 6 generations ago.
It would have very little influence on Black Forge's breeding
and current track performance.

Pink Character 3 x 3 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Knocka Knows All 5 x 4 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Sapphire Madam 5 x 4 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Marlow Brown 5 x 4 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Black Driftwood 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Estranged 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Reviewer 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Falcons Fury 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
*Poke the Bear 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Monster Fish 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame
Black Forge 5 x 6 in the primary in x to Tranquil Flame

The 2 sets of littermates involved are Awesome Assassin and Goddess of Fire from the '94 litter & Tranquil Scene and Lilli Pilli Lad from the '97 repeat mating litter.

NB. *Poke the Bear's litter are equally 6 x 5 in x to Famous Portrait as well.

Interestingly this is also a damline line where bitches with little to no ability can throw top city grade dogs, so think twice before you don't breed on with them especially if they are well conformed no nonsense types.

These were my stats from about 5 and a half yrs ago re Lemon Soda from that thread:

Ryan Vanderwert wrote:

If you look at a recent example at this bitch Lemon Soda who has been line bred in x in Aus. There are now these successes CLICK HERE brothers Brent, Dungey and sister Gunda Bale CLICK HERE and sister Oenjay Dancer CLICK HERE ; CLICK HERE ; CLICK HERE ; CLICK HERE her brothers Royal Sprite & Triggsy There are 5 other litters who I don't want to name for the sake of their connections that MAY not be successful but those pups are over 2.5 yrs of age. Now they're my stats at this stage - 6 successes and possibly 5 failures - 55% success rate when linebreeding in x thru littermates with a modern day brood in Lemon Soda who btw I wouldn't as yet rate as a cornerstone brood. Interestingly when I 1st started to look at Lemon Soda in this topic 18 months ago she had 2 successes & 2 failures that I knew of. Now after 11 litters I've spotted that are primarily linebred in x to her the %'s are much the same.

Good luck with your litter Ted. Cheers.

I just realised a couple of weeks ago that for the first time in almost 40 yrs I don't have any involvement in this great sport since the last racer I was involved with finished up, and what's worse is that I don't have any desire to be a participant anymore, so blokes like you Ted who keep going amongst all this adversity in the industry at present, are an inspiration to people like me.

You Ted, are never too old for anything ! All the best.

CLICK HERE was planing this but my bitch CLICK HERE is not good enough
how did your litter break in ?