Rather than go off topic on the Beast thread thought I'd create a new topic for discussion. Hope you dont mind.

Wayne Garner wrote:

...But tesio is talking about race horses who have 2 foal not a litter if 6-8 ect.......

Wayne I totally agree with you and that's the difference between racehorses and greyhounds. It's a very good point you make.

That's why I'm advocating those intensities need to at least be 87.5% (14 of 16 lines cross duplicated in any nick) to be effective if you are to recreate a decent city racer with greyhounds.

The intensity within that nick has to be a lot higher due to greyhounds being more inbred/linebred simply due to the fact that many of their littermates are evident in pedigrees compared to racehorses.

With that Mr Audacious mating, if it was a racehorse Tesio may have only needed 8 of the 16 lines covered(50%), or even less of the pedigree cross duplicated to have an effective racehorse. So his theory has to be tweaked for greyhounds.

Wayne I bought into two greyhounds last year due to mainly x path & Tesio's theory. The 2 litters had both theories going for them, and there are dogs in both litters that can really gallop. Cheers.

https:/ CLICK HERE
liked this litter as the mighty Taipan Bale https:/ CLICK HERE was also from this dam line, so obvious to me anyway, to try to linebreed his sire.

Had SMZ going about 22.07(adjusted times) at Ballarat tonite which is quite sharp and at this early stage looks like he'll get 500m.

It's always a challenge to try to linebreed Solve the Puzzle thru different individuals and reintroduce him back into the dam line he had been so successful with previously(Taipan Bale), and Jamie & Lydia had done that with this litter with different individuals New Tears, Chariot Supreme, Satan's Legend, Princess Diro, Chief Dingaan, Popcorn & Bowetzel and their pedigrees in Aston Kimetto's dam Sweet it Is pedigree covering 14 of the 16 lines(88%) in Solve the Puzzle's pedigree https:/ CLICK HERE in the 5th generation if you look at the Blood Quota table below.

It was good to see the linebreeding in the x path to Zarbo thru full blood relations Mogambo and Flamenco at work with this litter, indicating Zarbo a possible cornerstone brood of the future. Perfectly positioned outcross KC&All in a primary 'not in x' position gave great balance to the damline & 100% x path intensity or vigour, that was created by the linebreeding thru different individuals.

The other litter is only 16 mths old https:/ CLICK HERE and one pup in particular did everything right at break in 2 mths ago, and went 15.43 at Richmond on a track many rated a tenth slow on the day. So he looks very promising. Two other brothers and a sister also broke in respectably but a long way to go still for all of them.

This damline linebreeds No Intent really well due to WA GOTY Foolish Girl also originating from the same line https:/ CLICK HERE and it was proven with top dog Slingshot Hammer https:/ CLICK HERE also coming from the line with his sires dam Chloe Allen linebreeding No Intent thru different individuals Head Honcho, New Tears & Chariot Supreme and their pedigrees in her pedigree covering No Intent https:/ CLICK HERE at 88% (14 of the 16 lines), in the 5th generation.

So putting Dyna Villa over Slingshot Jayla was almost a 'no brainer' as that linebreeding angle to No Intent is already proven with this damline. Villa's dam Roxio Bale carries the same individuals saturating No Intent in exactly the same way Chloe Allen did https:/ CLICK HERE - 88%(14 of the 16 lines), coverage again in the 5th gen.

The added bonus with this litter was the primary linebreeding intensity in the x path to Lemon Soda in Roxio Bale's and Spiral Nikita's damline(not on the front page) thru brothers Curryhill Brute/Fox. The stats re Lemon Soda being a primary 100% cross in the x path, was a pup in 6 of the first 11 litters in Aus linebred in this manner won in town. That's a 55% city winning strike rate, so I always wanted to buy a pup that carried that type of intensity.

So far so good for both litters. Cheers.

Rather than take the Tim Zoo thread off topic, thought I'd paste your question onto this one. Hope you don't mind, Tony.

I assisted Jay Ferguson with the pedigree that ended up being Rippin' Grace. She's the next level up, Group class atm.

Im not having a go at you by the way. As the mating on paper is a ripper. So, anyone that knows breeding, would have been excited watching that litter grow up.

Do you assist Jay on all his matings? And what does assist mean? Again, not having a go, just trying to give you the opportunity to elaborate. Rather, than you just throwing it out there and getting jumped on.

It begs the question, if you can assist with a Rippin Grace, why dont you go all in breeding yourself?

Yeah not a worry m8, thx for the opportunity to explain my process. Was getting a bit hairy on the Tim Zoo topic with ALL Breeding Experts even being blanketly labelled all sorts of names...........sheesh! Just don't understand some people sometimes :) Anyway lets move on and not worry about them.

Assisting means exactly that with Jay, he likes to be involved. He has consulted me with most of his peds I'd say, but even if he hadn't, he'd call me for a chat at various stages of their pup development. He is very creative with how he rears.

With Jay, he chooses sires he likes and then calls to see how they fit with my theories and his damline. I just explain to him the plusses and minus' with each sire he's chosen and how they fit into the breeding theory in conjunction with his damline.
We've spent countless hrs on the phone over the yrs.

With Slingshot Spirit he specifically requested to strengthen the line, and we'd try to do that previously with the line by linebreeding Bombastic Shiraz because of his success with the line giving up Miata, but it didn't work.

I pointed that out to him and suggested after taking a little time reinvestigating the damline, rather than linebreeding Bombastic again thru different individuals, that maybe we shld try linebreed Brett Lee thru different individuals, as Topology, a staying type was from the same damline too.

One of his selected sires was Bernardo at the time, and it fitted Tesio's breeding theory perfectly but not so much x path. He said he liked how we'd changed tack from linebreeding Bombastic to Brett Lee, and as he had a good feeling for Bernardo as a future sire he wld run with that and let x path ride, the pedigree was done in about 40 mins. That's what assisted means with Jay.

Jay leased Spirit out for her next litter on a pup basis and I have been lucky enuf to be involved in that process too only last week. One of those gents has an incredible knowledge of damlines, so fingers crossed for them.

Brent Sullivan's ped with Reidy's Runner https:/ CLICK HERE was done similarly by text I think from memory in consultation, however took many hours.

Everyone has different needs and ideas how they want to do things. I explain the important concepts of the theories and I just try to accommodate them.

Many people I've found just want to see if my ideas match theirs. I find that's a waste of my time and their money. People think I can take one look at a bitch and know what she needs - I don't. I need to break that bitches ped down and see what sires have clicked with it's damline in the past, before I even start looking for sires to fit those linebreeding angles.

The people I do peds for now understand that process as a result the pedigree discussions are always far more meaningful and at times quite beneficial with future outcomes.

Go all in - tried that Darren. Trainers keep sending injured dogs back, not in the condition they were sent there in, and with litters on the ground there's nowhere to put them. Not going thru that again and council only allows 5 dogs over the age of 6 mths on the property. Just prefer to buy the odd one here and there from a litter I've consulted on or ped I've liked and take my chances that way. Cheers.

Im a little confused, how did Bernardo pass your theory, when as you say the mating - fitted Tesios breeding theory perfectly, but not so much x path? Thought Tesio theory was your entree and the strong x path, the main course?

Would Bernardo have been your #1 selection, if Jay hadnt shortlisted him and made the executive decision? Due to it being light on the x path. Did you have an absolute #1 selection? Whos she going to next?

I don't say use this sire or that sire, that usually becomes apparent as we go thru the process with the sires we eliminate. Instead look at the bitch's pedigree and see which sires carry the linebreeding she needs that may ignite that pedigree again. I have no preconceived ideas going in - zero, zilch, none. I think that's very important.

From Jay's perspective I had to understand that Spirit was a sprinter, and her mother was a sprinter, so it was important to heed Jay's request to add strength to the line, and I tried to do that by linebreeding Brett Lee thru different individuals instead of Bombastic this time. Who wlda thought that! lol.

Would Bernardo have been my personal #1 selection ? I'll never know because I approached the ped from Jay's and the bitch's perspective.

Don't get me wrong the x path is always there, however with this particular x path I didn't like having to rely on it. I made that very clear to Jay. That's not to say the x path may not have contributed, but it was fortunate that the Tesio angle gave up the linebreeding we needed.

I think she's going to Wow next Darren. Cheers.

Hardly Tony.

If something doesn't work with a previous litter from the line, no way we're going down that same line again. That'd be negligent of me not to point that out. You've got to be able to change it up.

Doing the same thing hoping for a different result is the definition of stupidity, and a sure way to the poor house. Sheesh!

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Thx Darren, just going back to the same Brett Lee linebreeding well, hoping for a similar result. Cheers.

If the first dart misses the Bull's Eye then you
hope the second and third will stick.

Why wld you want to start Spirit's brood bitch career off on the back foot by adopting a dart board approach or going with a previously failed attempt? That again doesn't make much sense to me.

Even with a maiden brood bitch I'd look down the damline and see what it's given up, then linebreed it's sire thru different individuals. That's Tesio's logic and hardly 'dart board'. Tesio is considered a highly valid and in Spirit's case, an extremely successful breeding theory.

Give it a go Tony.

I respect that you have opinions/plans when it comes to breeding and you stick to it; but could you explain this to me?

Years ago, a mate and I raced a bitch named About Square and, when she retired, she was one of the first bitches to go to Barneys Alarm.

https:/ CLICK HERE

That litter was a ripper and produced five individual city winners that had About Square as the third leading Wentworth Park brood bitch in the late 90s. Another pup, Bomb Square, won its only start at Appin (coming from last) and was the grandmother of a National Distance Champion and also the South Australian Derby. The fastest dog in the litter died just after break-in. Another dog had two starts for two wins.

About Square went back to Barneys Alarm for her third litter and they were legless. These pups were reared in the same yards and manner as the first litter, were treated exactly the same as the first litter but showed absolutely nothing from day one - and didn't get any better.

Are you guys able to explain the reason why the first litter was so good yet the repeat mating was a disaster, just like so many repeat matings are.

Just further, Darren, (and I seriously hope I'm not putting the mock on you) if your Hooked on Scotch x Pennybacker turn out similar to our second Barney's litter, will you breed with any of the girls from the litter?

If you look at Reggemites pedigree, the same ingredients are on show as your mates litter. Years later Top Honcho shows it in abundance in his top offspring - Mineola Farloe comes to mind, being the Im Slippy dam line.

We all try and do our best and hope we can keep breeding good dogs. The obvious factor is the difference in age of the brood from the first litter. If shed had another litter after it and produced a star again. Maybe itd be more definitive? Again, all we try and do is our best and hope success keeps happening.

Plenty of similarities how Bothing and Tears Of Jupiter are bred as well. So, get the pedigree right as best as possible and hope it all falls your way.

Too early to answer that question. In that how legless were that 2nd litter? What were the best times any of the bitches ran in either winning or defeat?

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Tony, Tesio is a breeding theory that imo works and x path is basic genetics. Where's the hype and the BS ?

Just trying to get the genes I'd want involved into the mix and not be relying on that being from the fastest or most fashionable sire around.

I really don't see anything wrong with that especially if that thought process can give up some really special types. Cheers.