But you won't be taking her to a slow sire.

Something to think about - if you go back 1000 generations and beyond, all that's been added to that original bitches pedigree (ie, genetics) is sires, so a current dam is nothing more than the sires used along the way, the closer up the more influential.

Well if you look at your first example above Michael, I think this maybe why:

https:/ CLICK HERE Gun Law Osti (GLO) with this damline gave up Kobble Creek as you say but also the mighty Long Shadow who never got warm until after 300m. Chloe Allen reintroduces GLO's ped at an extremely high 94% (15 of 16 lines cross duplicated in the 5th gen) through different individuals back into the same damline.

Chloe Allen is extremely closely related to GLO. Tornado Tears in turn becomes a breeding parallel to Long Shadow for the above reason. It's classic Tesio - linebreeding a previously successful sire (GLO) through different individuals in Chloe Allens pedigree.

The important question is WHY do you think your other examples are successful ? That's what would be very hard to ignore.

Mick Ivers, also used Kiowa Sweet Trey and then Bekim Bale, carrying Sonic Flight. Then went to a 50/50 sire in Fernando Bale.

Without all that outcross, would he have been able to use Goodesy to good current early success?

You need to justify (if we are talking linebreeding), what those outcrosses actually add to the pedigree. It's very hard to linebreed using outcrosses and the linebreeding that's there is quite easy to identify. For example, I know if there is linebreeding in the x path, it then becomes a valid genetic reason.

So unless you can say what effect those outcrosses actually have on that pedigree, genetically or theoretically logically, you aren't proving anything saying they are there or there's a pattern here.

You need to say why you think that's the case, otherwise the moment you go to copy what's there, it's likely you'll breed next to nothing because you don't know genetically or theoretically why you're doing it.

As I've said many times before people say Collision bitches nick well with Kinloch Brae for example. Unless you know why (and I have my reason why), it's quite possible you'll miss the ingredient that counts.

It's just too general a reason for my liking saying 'because it's there' or 'there's a pattern there'. Why is it there, is where we need to go imo. Once you know that, then you start pulling the odds into your favor.

Look at the great trio of sires Amerigo Man, New Tears and Ginger. All bred 2 x 3 to Temlee - Amerigo Man did so well with Waverley Supreme up close. To negate his inbred offerings - his top class son Dilston Prince, an outcross dam line as well. New Tears, carries obscure genes thereafter, the outcross you have without having an outcross. Ginger has Waverley Supreme up close, then the not so prolific Main Issue and obscure Impatient Jet.

So for me it's not an outcross that allows the pedigree to breathe and what you're saying sounds really great, but I like to have the percentages that mean something logical on my side.

I love outcrosses providing they linebreed in x to a cornerstone brood. I can't remember seeing one that doesn't linebreed in x being any good.

Why aren't sons of Kinloch doing as well at stud ? Could it be the line breeding in the x path to cornerstone brood Elsie Moss goes out of play ? Highly likely imo. Cld the lack of success be due to breeders saying 'daughters of such and such went well with Kinloch, therefore they shld go well with sons of Kinloch'? Probably likely when genetically it wasn't possible.

https:/ CLICK HERE ran a ptp at Sandown one night as fast as My Bro Fabio on adjusted times. Primarily linebred in the x path thru littermates Max Moss & Mister Moss to cornerstone brood Elsie Moss. What other linebreeding is there up as close in that ped using an outcross ?

So even when you outcross you shld still linebreed in x.

https:/ CLICK HERE

On Kinloch Brae, his best in this country are from ordinary producing sire dam line families. To pick out Kinloch Brae from these dam lines, is a tad unfair on KB, IMO.

You may be misunderstanding what I'm saying.

So KB carries Max Moss in x in the 5th gen.
Any brood bitch that carries Temlee(squillions of them) in the x path also carries Mister Moss (Max's litterm8) in x.
Now that's a 100% intensity thru different individuals to cornerstone brood Elsie Moss. Which imo is why he was so successful in Aus.
You will not find an Aus pedigree with Elsie Moss in the 6th gen other than thru KB. They are 9/10 gens at least away, let alone in x as well.
If those brothers were within 3 gens it wld arguably be called inbreeding.
So the fact that they are littermates and back in the ped of say an Angie Rocks is a good thing. The intensity is highly volatile if they nick but far enuf back in the ped to also be subtle enough to produce dynamite racers, as far as x goes.
HOWEVER, if you're talking sons of KB, it's not genetically possible for them to pass on Elsie Moss' x chrome from Max Moss.
There's nothing unfair about it, it's just not genetically possible.

It's late m8, ttyl.

I'm of the belief a good broodie can make an average sire, but a bad sire can ruin a good broodie

You look at it far too isolated for mine, but each to their own.

Explain this one to me. Dorotas Wildcat is going ok at stud in Ireland / UK - EXTERNAL LINK

Are we to believe that Nobooth For Gary has no correlation with fellow US sire Kinloch Brae, because theyre not in an x path??

I don't think that is the answer....these are just stabs in the dark

Why do litter brothers produce differently to each other:

Big Daddy Cool vs Lethal Weapon

Dusty Rapid vs Dusty Trail

Amerigo Man vs West Cape vs Walkabout Sid (Walkabout Sid , the least prolific, has produced the sire line that carried on)

Wheres Pedro vs Hallucinate vs Crash vs Carnage (Wheres Pedro barely won a 2 turn race but wass arguable the leading sire out of the 3, Hallucinate buried in Barcia Bale, Crash did fantastic in UK)

I truly believe that every sire, even between brothers throw to a part of a pedigree that no one can predict that will nick with the broodbitch population

e.g. Black Enforcer was a son of Token Prince out of a Head Honcho female. His progeny were very much like Head Honcho and not token Prince, they were usually large dogs, mainly sprinters with the Head Honcho aggressiveness and behavioural traits, whereas Token Prince produced mainly smaller animals, more laid back and dominant 500m+ progeny

I don;t tthink anyone could have predicted that a son of Token Prince could have thrown those dominant Head Honcho traits like Black enforcer did, even though there was always a chance of it

To me it sghowed that Head Honcho was dominant in Black Enforcers pedigree and he passed those traits on

Therefore, I truly believe that some sires are able to pass on positive genetic traits more than others which determines their overall success in the broodbitch population they are working in and its never more evident that when I analyse the performance of two brothers that are also sires and have progeny racing

No one will ever truly know until there is at least 20-30 litter son the ground racing as to what traits and thus nicks are dominating

I have stats for all these brothers from actual results that show how diverse they nick each other amongst the broodbitches that have produced superior progeny

Now we have more brothers on the scene, it will be interesting to see how they perform over time and what part of their pedigrees they will throw to

Superior Panama vs Superior Product (Dour vs speedy)

Feral Franky vs Good Odds Harada

Aston Rupee vs Aston Fastnet

I don't pretend to have any answers or predictive theories

I believe you can only work with results, not theories, the latter is guesswork

Yet I find all barcia pups similar to the father in Behaviour , all very same same ???

Go figure I guess , a great debate imop

Nathan, that's only with the x chromosome there are 38 others. So what you are seeing may well be the case.

If you look at Brett Lee's ped for example https:/ CLICK HERE and Bonnie Secret in particular who is attached directly to the sires sireline, there is 100% linebreeding intensity created with Newmore Tears. It's brilliantly positioned to a bitch attached directly to the sires sireline.
I never used to like seeing that front page intensity (totally different to damline intensity), any closer than 3 gens but then along came Stanley Road https:/ CLICK HERE with this far more closer intensity https:/ CLICK HERE . He really shldn't be able to stay.

Is he an exception to the rule or do you disregard the theory. I've chosen to do the latter as if there's an exception, then there is no rule (or is there Jim P ? lol).

So Sandro I'm all for disproving theories but personally i want to fully understand what they are first. I just think there are some worth sticking with.

Matt Griffiths wrote:

Some broodies would produce to a Jack Russell, they're just freaks I'm of the belief a good broodie can make an average sire, but a bad sire can ruin a good broodie

Matt I understand how you can think that, but I need to know why that happens. Lol.

Normally I found a decent Aus line may throw top dogs to up to a half a dozen different sires, but the Leprechaun line threw to 11 when I disected that damline a few yrs ago. So I think it's important to break it down and see what's behind it.

Darren Leeson wrote:

You look at it far too isolated for mine, but each to their own. Explain this one to me. Dorotas Wildcat is going ok at stud in Ireland / UK - EXTERNAL LINK Are we to believe that Nobooth For Gary has no correlation with fellow US sire Kinloch Brae, because theyre not in an x path??

Yes, to isolate it is my sole intention. That way I know exactly what sire I need to linebreed to create the breeding parallel I want.

I always started pedigrees by spending 3 to 4 hrs sometimes breaking down their damline. IOW going back 5 gens looking at what that damline, it's sisters, half sisters etc., has thrown and to which sires.

Then I wld look at the viability of linebreeding those sires thru different individuals at high%'s as that's what creates intensity -Tesio.

Interesting you brought up Dorotas Wildcat. It's damline linebreeds Bombastic Shiraz at a massive 91% within 6 gens EXTERNAL LINK thru different individuals generating a huge amt of intensity. I think he cld be super for Aus where Bombastic has had a positive influence on damlines here.

Also Dorotas dam linebreeds Thorn Falcon's grandam's sire Daves Mentor at a massive 91% within 6 gens thru different individuals EXTERNAL LINK . A group 2 winner resulted from that mating and Thorn Falcon is a breeding parallel to Craan Fleece from basically just a damline perspective by reinforcing an extremely high % of Daves Mentor back into the same damline he was successful with 2 gens ago. It's not rocket science.

This is what's there within 5 gens between Kinloch and NFG EXTERNAL LINK At face value too many gaps for me. There maybe more in the 6th and 7th gens you can draw on to get that intensity up, but the percentages don't look to be there.
As for Nobooth, he is in the x path, just not to Kinloch. Cheers.

Why do some litter brothers or sisters for that matter, produce better than others?

And why can do siblings breed superior dogs to different lines?