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Lance Day Australia (Verified User) Posts 864 Dogs 16 / Races 1 06 Sep 2010 12:56
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Below is a list of dogs over the years that are Rasmussen Bred.
Black Top is bred to Fine Linen and his sister Yulalla. Temlee to Top Linen and Brendas Daughter Brother /Sister. Pitstock Park to Millers Moss and Mister Moss . Half Brothers. Brother Fox to Elsie Moss through her sons Mister Moss and Millers Moss. Go Wild Teddy through the half brothers Brother Fox and Acacia Park Head Honcho through Promises Free and Nation Parade BRO/STR. Many Tricks , the same as Head Honcho. Amerigo Man ans West cape to Elsie Moss through her sons Millers Moss and MISTER MOSS. National Queen to Temora Lee through her son Temlee and Daughter Viola Lee. Bro /Str. GunLaw Osti to Elsie Moss through her sons Millers Moss and Mister Moss. Snozz to Sabby's Image through her sons Malawi and Buka Sunset Dollar Bird To Secretly through her daughters Bonnie Secret and Accademy Lass. Mrs Robinson (Grand Dam of Bayroad Queen) to Gorgeous Babe through her son Magic Babe and daughter Gay Glint. The Marne the maternal grand sire of Rocket Jet was the product of a half brother x half sister mating. Odessa Shiraz to Sabby's Image through the litter brothers Buka Sunset and Malawi also to Shining Light through the Brother Sister Shining Chariot and Houston Star. Worth Doing to Elsie Moss through her sons Clay Moss ,Millers Moss and Mister Moss. Spanish Dance to Venetian Rose through her son Venetian Court and his sister Venetian Babe also to Byam Rose through the brothers Bandar Prince and Pine Mulga. Senojian Fox the great grand dam of El Galo to Venetian Babe throught her daughters Lucy Borgia and Temora Lee(Temlee's Dam)also to Byam Rose through her sons Bandar Prince and The Stripper. Bombastic Shiraz to Sabbys Image through her sons Malawi and Buka Sunset. Zimbabwee to Elsie Moss through her sons Clay Moss and Millers Moss. Byame the sire of the great Byam Rose to Shady Burn through her Daughter Silver Mane ( dam of the great Silver Chief) and her son Cliff's Pride. Byam Rose champion brood of the 60's to Percyton Lass through her son Percyton Lad and daughter Lassalla. Octum the dam of Waverly Supreme to Sally Well through her champion son Champion Prince and his sister Vandado. Ballarat Prince through Bermuda's Glory through her sons Kilbeg Kuda and Myross Again. Others that come to mind are True Temptation the dam of Token Prince, Collision,Golden Fox, Travelling Girl, Credibility, Surf Lorian, Solve The Puzzle and Placard. People over the recent years have said that the Brother Fox cross to Pretty Short was a very successful cross , this is because in using this cross a Rasmussen cross was created to the great Secretly through her daughters Bonny Secret and Newmore Secret. In the future you will find people using Cosmic Rumble over a Collision bitch which should produce some top racers of the futute. Some people don't like this form of breeding but in my opinion the proof is in the list above and that is only a fraction of top dogs that have been bred this way
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 06 Sep 2010 18:32
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Leon Rasmussen claimed his theory is based on the breeding of full or half female siblings within the first 5 generations. His studies showed that a very small percentage of starters/winners carried this type of breeding pattern. Like some dogs in your list, this pattern was about long before Rasmussen had noticed it and had been since day dot, and like any influence you seek through the doubling of siblings or any relative, it becomes less an influence the further back it goes. His studies found more winners carrying this cross in the first few generations at only a small %, and i doubt he had a list of winners not carrying this pattern which way out numbered the RF. Also the list of those carrying the RF which never won a race or of average ability would fare outway the winners. This theory may influence the breed in two ways, for racing stock and breeding stock, but who can prove a dogs performance to its pedigree, and what actual influence does the parent stock carry from these superior females. Relatives will always play a part behind a pedigree, and if one looks hard enough they could more than likely devise their own theory.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 06 Sep 2010 19:41
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Breeding is,nt it a great subject the nicest part about breeding is we all have a theory and the sadest part is few of us are successful.To me successful is when you look back and you can still see a line that was bred on the 3rd,4th or 5th remove thru the bitches still going strong and producing winners of all grades of racing
Tom Flanagan Australia (Verified User) Posts 7250 Dogs 974 / Races 1022 06 Sep 2010 21:20
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Hi Lance - while I like to see a Rasmussen cross in a pedigree, simply listing successful greyhounds with a Rasmussen cross isn't proof. Proof would be showing that dogs bred that way do better on average than dogs that aren't bred that way.
I can list some top dogs that aren't Rasmussen bred but that's not proof against the theory either. Rasmussen bred means a duplicated female within 5 generations through different offspring. (Gun Law Osti is actually Rasmussen bred to Secretly, not Elsie Moss CLICK HERE )
I'm a fan of linebreeding (plenty of that to be seen in both lists above) and see Rasmussen crosses as a particular form of linebreeding. Cheers, Tom
Lance Day Australia (Verified User) Posts 864 Dogs 16 / Races 1 06 Sep 2010 23:25
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Tom Flanagan wrote:
Hi Lance - while I like to see a Rasmussen cross in a pedigree, simply listing successful greyhounds with a Rasmussen cross isn't proof. Proof would be showing that dogs bred that way do better on average than dogs that aren't bred that way.
I can list some top dogs that aren't Rasmussen bred but that's not proof against the theory either. Rasmussen bred means a duplicated female within 5 generations through different offspring. (Gun Law Osti is actually Rasmussen bred to Secretly, not Elsie Moss CLICK HERE )
I'm a fan of linebreeding (plenty of that to be seen in both lists above) and see Rasmussen crosses as a particular form of linebreeding. Cheers, Tom
Tom , I was up till 2am compiling this list and yes you are right re GunLaw Osti. An interesting pedigree is that of Amerigo Magic the sire of Rapid Journey. He is heavily Rasmussen bred to Pitstock Park through her sons Brother Fox and Acacia Park and has another RC on the fifth line to Secretly.He is also heavily line bred to Temlee CLICK HERE Most people would not have bred so close.I remember when Rapid Journey was racing asking Ruth Matic about Amerigo Magic and she said she raced against him many times and said he was a flyer up the straight at Appin and was also injury plagued. When you look at Rapid Journey CLICK HERE you see where the value of the outcross of Curryhill Brute has benefited this mating.The outcross was needed here.Amerigo Magic did not attract many bitches but another successful mating of his was to Gaylee who was a daughter of another import Ballyregan Jack. Cheers. Lance.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 07 Sep 2010 01:15
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Tom in theory I will agree that,s looking at the 1st 5 generations of those named dogs,but if you delve deeper you may find quite a few of those dogs are offspring of earlier dogs bred the 3rd 4th or 5th line way take Rocket Jet his Damsire The Marne is bred 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister ..if you take Clopook in Academy Lass,s breeding he is also bred this 3 x 4 or 5th line,Which Chariots Sire line came thru from 2 half brothers, so to me we could all beg to differ and never agree in theory,so maybe this is what Rassmussen was delving into who knows.I prefer the 3rd to the 4th remove to me when it clicks it,s like having a little goldmine of brood bitches and plenty of winners
Lance Day Australia (Verified User) Posts 864 Dogs 16 / Races 1 07 Sep 2010 02:20
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John McAlister wrote:
Tom in theory I will agree that,s looking at the 1st 5 generations of those named dogs,but if you delve deeper you may find quite a few of those dogs are offspring of earlier dogs bred the 3rd 4th or 5th line way take Rocket Jet his Damsire The Marne is bred 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister ..if you take Clopook in Academy Lass,s breeding he is also bred this 3 x 4 or 5th line,Which Chariots Sire line came thru from 2 half brothers, so to me we could all beg to differ and never agree in theory,so maybe this is what Rassmussen was delving into who knows.I prefer the 3rd to the 4th remove to me when it clicks it,s like having a little goldmine of brood bitches and plenty of winners
John , long before Rasmussen this type of breeding is attributed to Federico Tesio an Italian champion throughbred Racehorse Breeder.Tesio had this theory and it produced many champions that exist in the pedigrees of our modern day Racehorse.He would look for the cross of the same progency in the sire and dam he was planning to breed with. Sometimes he would go back many generations looking for this nick as he called it. John judging by your reports on breeding you enjoy this subject.If you can get hold of the book. TESIO MASTER OF MATINGS BY KEN MCLEAN.This is an outstanding read and explains Tesio's theory.This theory was so successful that until very recently there was a race named after him on either Melbourne Cup day or The Cox Plate Day namely THE TESIO. Have a look at Pitstock Park and Amerigo Magic.
I know a guy who married his cousin and his kids can't run very fast, so the RF must be a fraud.
lol
Seriously half of the sires of yesteryear have allegedly doubtful lineage anyway. We have all heard the stories about which dog didn't sire which dog at some stage.
In an age where the white coats can accurately alter genes to control the sex and even the eye colour of your children, is not possible to genetically prove or disprove many breeding theories as pure coincidence? Can they not isolate the "gene" that produces speed?
RF itself cannot work on every line, surely the dogs that are RF bred still have to be good! In that case doesnt breeding from good dogs give you a better chance of having better offspring anyway??
There is no right or wrong answer here, no can prove that a RF bred dog in the 1950's would have been greater or lesser by another sire. It all specualtion in my opinion.
Nonetheless, it's still an interesting read.
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 07 Sep 2010 06:53
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What,s the saying put the best with the best and hope for the best I think that has been about for many a long year now and yes it is successful it has to be,because when you delve into the best you find a clique whether that be inbred, outcrossed with irish or english or RF bred it will be there as I said earlier Which Chariot to Black top bitches what was the clique there was it RF thru Castledown Lad that did it we won,t know ,but it is there and it is carried thru a lot of lines today,I think the sad part of breeding today is the inbreeding that has been done.Before people jump on me,I know it has produced good dogs but at what expence for the future.Once upon a time we could outcross to a complete Australian sire today we can,t and I hope it does,nt go that way in Ireland.How many dogs today are linebred thru the bitches on both sires and dams damlines at the 3rd 4th or at a stretch 4th to 5th,we had the best sires in the world history tells us that let,s not have history telling us in the future that we have,nt.One only has to look at the Merino we had the best still have some but they sold the farm they sold the rams,same goes for the Hereford
Mark Glennerster United Kingdom (Verified User) Posts 3208 Dogs 0 / Races 0 07 Sep 2010 07:03
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Warren,
They probable can isolate the performance genes, but it would certainly take so much away from the breeding gamble that to release any info on the subject would cause too many headaches for far too many people involved in the breeding side of our sport. Just imagine having paid a fortune for a potential breeding prospect only to find out that the scientists say its no good, it can not pass on the required genes for performance at a ratio that will recover even your investment.
Was Rasmussen a theory for milking cows?.I have read that some where.My humble opinion is that the factors a racing greyhound have to forfill are much greater then doing in compare only one thing,giving as much milk as possible. It start already in the early stages in life of a greyhound,rearing. You can destroy a top litter by e.g. bad nutrition.then they must chase,having early,stamina,the will to win,dont fight,not injury prone,etc,etc. A friend of mine practice as he called it the "Rasmataz" theory. look for 3 sires you like and fit your bitch bloodline,then go for the one who produce the most winners.Who can say he is right,who can say he is wrong ?.
Seriously though, would you like me to put up a list of great dogs sired by track record holders?
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 07 Sep 2010 07:57
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yes Graeme that would be nice but it will still come back to breeding would it not
John McAlister Australia (Verified User) Posts 6567 Dogs 1 / Races 0 07 Sep 2010 08:02
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cees de snoo wrote:
Was Rasmussen a theory for milking cows?.I have read that some where.My humble opinion is that the factors a racing greyhound have to forfill are much greater then doing in compare only one thing,giving as much milk as possible. It start already in the early stages in life of a greyhound,rearing. You can destroy a top litter by e.g. bad nutrition.then they must chase,having early,stamina,the will to win,dont fight,not injury prone,etc,etc. A friend of mine practice as he called it the "Rasmataz" theory. look for 3 sires you like and fit your bitch bloodline,then go for the one who produce the most winners.Who can say he is right,who can say he is wrong ?.
I think it is a way of breeding high milk producing dairy cattle, I think it was also used on the breeding of slaves all those years ago what about royalty were they not getting to the stage of being inbred
Yes John your right.I read about a story of the Habsburg dinasty of Austria/Hungary,All inbreed.At a later stage they all had some related deseases.Also,and this is interesting ,they all had a very long underjaw.A lot of them died very young.You see you can go to far with inbreeding.For them it was power and land.For us it is speed and pricemoney.
Peter Dutton Australia (Verified User) Posts 39 Dogs 49 / Races 2 08 Sep 2010 11:08
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We did this mating this week...
CLICK HERE Identical genetics through Spark Again and Heart spark (2x3) and Rasmussen to Another Fool...
CLICK HERE Identical genetics through Spark Again and Heart spark (2x3) and Rasmussen to Another Fool...
Very interesting Peter, as at one point I looked at doing something quite similar with Lilly Grace (your brood's sister). I hope it pays big dividends for you mate!
Lance Day Australia (Verified User) Posts 864 Dogs 16 / Races 1 08 Sep 2010 12:59
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Peter Dutton wrote:
We did this mating this week...
CLICK HERE Identical genetics through Spark Again and Heart spark (2x3) and Rasmussen to Another Fool...
Looks good on paper. Good Luck.
Ian Rose Australia (Verified User) Posts 941 Dogs 6 / Races 11 09 Sep 2010 01:01
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I know I have harped on about this before,but many people fail to grasp its relevence. With chickens and egg production,breeders many years ago found that hybrid breeds often produced more eggs than pure strains. I dont remember the exact numbers, but it went something like. pure breed A when mated together produced on average an egg every 24 hours,as did pure breed B. But when breed A was crossed with breed B they averaged an egg every 18 hours. However when these A+B hybids were mated together their offspring reverted back to producing an egg every 24 hours.?? My Conclusion which can be relevent with greyhound breeding.When a champion greyhound is produced,they will rarely reproduce their equal on the track,but the combining of the champions parents is where the holy grail lies.
Darren John McKenzie Australia (Verified User) Posts 507 Dogs 40 / Races 24 09 Sep 2010 01:14
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There's a tad more to successful breeding than relying upon the 'visual' duplication of a name within 5x generations........and whilst 'Rasmussen' linebreeding is a positive........... it certainly isn't on it's own.........regardless of how many examples are thrown up.
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
