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Jeff Holland Australia (Verified User) Posts 4831 Dogs 145 / Races 12 09 Sep 2010 01:38
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Ian, at last someone with a grasp of the basics.
The product of hybrid matings, and that includes 99% of the food we eat, are an end product. They are never meant too, and as a rule DO NOT reproduce their improvement in their own offspring.
One of my local vets who has a doctorate in genetics, says that stud dogs who are the result of a hybrid mating should be avoided, and brood bitches need to be inbred to the best dog in the pedigree.
Dan Hollywood Australia (Verified User) Posts 6026 Dogs 28 / Races 32 09 Sep 2010 01:44
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Pretty close Ian, and why they need the pure strains to keep that yield. Reintroducing the pure blood from a strain does wonders, but not just through any female. But again like any true strain of line bred progeny, it takes some time. However the A+B strain would again be put to A and B and so on until several branch lines are producing the desired yield. There are many hybrid strains around the world who will after many years need the A and B strains, and i often wonder why (disease, lol)the poultry production mobs detest the locals with their pure breds. If they werent available their hybrids would fade away.
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 09 Sep 2010 02:13
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Peter Dutton wrote:
We did this mating this week...
CLICK HERE Identical genetics through Spark Again and Heart spark (2x3) and Rasmussen to Another Fool...
Anything has got to be better than using those bloody imports like you have. Did you consider using Surf Lorian or one of his sons, looks a far better option IMO.
Darren McKenzie Australia (Verified User) Posts 1823 Dogs 96 / Races 105 09 Sep 2010 02:35
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jeff holland wrote:
Ian, at last someone with a grasp of the basics.
The product of hybrid matings, and that includes 99% of the food we eat, are an end product. They are never meant too, and as a rule DO NOT reproduce their improvement in their own offspring.
One of my local vets who has a doctorate in genetics, says that stud dogs who are the result of a hybrid mating should be avoided, and brood bitches need to be inbred to the best dog in the pedigree.
Jeff,
Would you class 'Bobniak' as a hybrid.........I'm keen to understand what some of you guys define as being a 'hybrid' bred name in today's aussie greyhound breed...
Darren Loughhead Australia (Verified User) Posts 163 Dogs 1 / Races 9 09 Sep 2010 02:46
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OK that means im screwed cause i just got a bitch, pure octane x dora lee,line bred to an undesired[bobniak] aaaarrrgggghhhhh.
Darren McKenzie Australia (Verified User) Posts 1823 Dogs 96 / Races 105 09 Sep 2010 03:01
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Don't read too much into this stuff above mate.........
Generally speaking, results from outcrossing are poor first generation.........not always, but generally.
And it's also dependant upon the quality used.............meaning that if the outcross is of superior quality, the chances of success in the dams homeland increases..............and decreases visa versa.
I'll let you decide upon each countires standing against the other............
But, the 'Bobniak' type of pedigree (bred 50/50) can be productive as a sire but it has to be mated right...............but really, this is the case with all matings/sires..... unless a dominant stud is present...........and there's really never ever that type of sire standing.
Linebreeding or breeding proven 'known' nicks is the answer................it's the big stick that helps you win the battle................and outcrossing plays a small part in it.
If you outcross your precious brood........you've made the outcross a big part..........50% a part...........that's far too big in Oz if you're looking to produce a decent racer.
But, if you've got a plan to re-invigourate your damline to produce females for brood production with outcrossing........then that a completey different story..........and group winning lists show that it has weight as a theme.
But at the end of the day..............it's the pedigree match-up that's improves the %'s................
Darren McKenzie Australia (Verified User) Posts 1823 Dogs 96 / Races 105 09 Sep 2010 03:07
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Darren Loughhead wrote:
OK that means im screwed cause i just got a bitch, pure octane x dora lee,line bred to an undesired[bobniak] aaaarrrgggghhhhh.
'BL' into 'PO' is a goer..........I'm not fussed about the double of 'Bobniak' but it's not the only major player in the mating......it's got some very nice proven clever linebreedings in it..........'TT/SB' into 'Amy' is a beauty.......
Good luck with your charger.....
Scott Taylor Australia (Verified User) Posts 1114 Dogs 300 / Races 161 09 Sep 2010 04:39
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Peter Dutton wrote:
We did this mating this week...
CLICK HERE Identical genetics through Spark Again and Heart spark (2x3) and Rasmussen to Another Fool...
Spark Again and Heart Spark DO NOT have the same genetics. Cleverly mated using the same sire to litter sisters, who would have got a different distribution of genetics from their parents Acacia Ablaze and Another Fool. Not the same.
Nevertheless, nicely bred, and hopefully this litter produces better than what MG has produced so far.
Scott Taylor Australia (Verified User) Posts 1114 Dogs 300 / Races 161 09 Sep 2010 04:46
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Darren McKenzie wrote:
Don't read too much into this stuff above mate.........
Generally speaking, results from outcrossing are poor first generation.........not always, but generally.
And it's also dependant upon the quality used.............meaning that if the outcross is of superior quality, the chances of success in the dams homeland increases..............and decreases visa versa.
I'll let you decide upon each countires standing against the other............
But, the 'Bobniak' type of pedigree (bred 50/50) can be productive as a sire but it has to be mated right...............but really, this is the case with all matings/sires..... unless a dominant stud is present...........and there's really never ever that type of sire standing.
Linebreeding or breeding proven 'known' nicks is the answer................it's the big stick that helps you win the battle................and outcrossing plays a small part in it.
If you outcross your precious brood........you've made the outcross a big part..........50% a part...........that's far too big in Oz if you're looking to produce a decent racer.
But, if you've got a plan to re-invigourate your damline to produce females for brood production with outcrossing........then that a completey different story..........and group winning lists show that it has weight as a theme.
But at the end of the day..............it's the pedigree match-up that's improves the %'s................
That's a pretty good summation Daz, but I don't quite agree about imports not producing good racers. Having said that, I think the true value of imports are as broodsires.
It just makes sense to linebreed a potent sire or bitch within a pedigree.. one that produces well and preferably had favourable race traits.. with an outcross to balance it out when the %s are a little close.
Darren McKenzie Australia (Verified User) Posts 1823 Dogs 96 / Races 105 09 Sep 2010 06:05
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Fair enough Scott..............
...Not only good as brood sires but what about these pedigrees.......
...just a few off the top........seems a generation later and the impact could be argued to be even better ?????
Outcrossing has played possibly the best part in our aussie winners at the best level.........but after a generation or two's pause........understood this way and outcrossing takes on it's best dimmension........
Maybe best to suggest that when these (mostly) outcrossed daughters look average on the track...........and are offered as give-aways........grab them.........you just might be able to chuckled all the way to the bank like some in the past have !!!
Paul Dicks Australia (Verified User) Posts 10281 Dogs 120 / Races 252 09 Sep 2010 06:29
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Rassmussen has been done to death on Greyhoud-data.
Not unhappy to find a RasX in a pedigree, but wouldn't go out of my way to get one. JMO
Jeff Holland Australia (Verified User) Posts 4831 Dogs 145 / Races 12 09 Sep 2010 06:42
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Darren McKenzie wrote:
jeff holland wrote:
Ian, at last someone with a grasp of the basics.
The product of hybrid matings, and that includes 99% of the food we eat, are an end product. They are never meant too, and as a rule DO NOT reproduce their improvement in their own offspring.
One of my local vets who has a doctorate in genetics, says that stud dogs who are the result of a hybrid mating should be avoided, and brood bitches need to be inbred to the best dog in the pedigree.
Jeff,
Would you class 'Bobniak' as a hybrid.........I'm keen to understand what some of you guys define as being a 'hybrid' bred name in today's aussie greyhound breed...
Darren, as I understand the theory he's not, but according to the definition most greyhound people use, he is.
Even I wont attempt to debate that one, but we've been sold these dogs as introducing 'hybrid vigour', so its sort of stuck.
Scott Taylor Australia (Verified User) Posts 1114 Dogs 300 / Races 161 09 Sep 2010 06:42
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Point taken, although it was only my own opinion that they were better as broodsires. There's exceptions to every theory. A few from more recent times that were handy racers and sired by an import...
Outcrossing has played possibly the best part in our aussie winners at the best level.........but after a generation or two's pause........understood this way and outcrossing takes on it's best dimmension........
Reckon you're on the money here... check out the top offspring of Surf Lorian, a pretty closely bred dog, and see the influence of imports within the first 3-4 generations!
Back on topic though... even though the RasX looks pretty in testmatings, it's only going to be beneficial if you want to enhance the influence of that particular female. Even better (in my opinion) if you can get a RasX to a particular female through SUCCESSFUL littermates.
Darren McKenzie Australia (Verified User) Posts 1823 Dogs 96 / Races 105 09 Sep 2010 07:14
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Scott,
There are plenty that can run............no argument there but it's the poor %'s and the lack of sheer 'time' class over 500m's that is my beef from these first generation outcrossed matings.....
As far as the most beneficial way to linebreed..........not only linebreeding littermates...........having siblings, parents and grand parents represented and balanced cleverly via different paths aids best in narrowing the outcome..........
Compare the likes of 'Dianna Moss' with 'Riviera Tiger' with 'Gallant Anne' with 'Chief Dingaan/Zimbabwe'...........it's a magical clever linebreeding........when bought into the 1x mix.......
'Bay Road Queen' is great..........she was mated to 'Waverly Supreme', son 'Chariot Supreme' and then grandson 'Shining Chariot' ...............and to 'Tangairn'.........and these lines all inter-breed terrifically.......
..and of course 'Malawi's Prince' with 'Shining Chariot' & siblings with 'Wee Sal' with 'Genuine Replica' and on and on...........this 'Waverly Supreme/Princess Diro' with occasionally 'Second Stage' theme is a beaut too.........
...bring the family together and you'll have the family forever.........but it does need a breather every few generations..........just don't expect too much from the dilutioning..........but expect an explosion from the re-linebreeding of the family (75/25 theme) after that ...........a 1x generations 'pause' isn't that much of a price to pay for a 'Worth Doing/Rapid Journey/Bond/Suellen Bale/Arvo's Junior/Boomeroo', etc.......possible result !!
Scott Taylor Australia (Verified User) Posts 1114 Dogs 300 / Races 161 09 Sep 2010 07:23
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Darren McKenzie wrote:
There are plenty that can run............no argument there but it's the poor %'s and the lack of sheer 'time' class over 500m's that is my beef from these first generation outcrossed matings.....
Agree for the most part, just pointing out that there are exceptions and that it shouldn't be taken as gospel.
Darren McKenzie wrote:
As far as the most beneficial way to linebreed..........not only linebreeding littermates...........having siblings, parents and grand parents represented and balanced cleverly via different paths aids best in narrowing the outcome..........
Agree completely, but I was talking about RasX linebreeding as it appears in testmating, not the best way of linebreeding per se.
Darren McKenzie wrote:
...bring the family together and you'll have the family forever.........but it does need a breather every few generations..........just don't expect too much from the dilutioning..........but expect an explosion from the re-linebreeding of the family (75/25 theme) after that ...........a 1x generations 'pause' isn't that much of a price to pay for a 'Worth Doing/Rapid Journey/Bond/Suellen Bale/Arvo's Junior/Boomeroo', etc.......possible result !!
And that was the point I was trying to make.
We're on the same page.
Tom Flanagan Australia (Verified User) Posts 7250 Dogs 974 / Races 1022 09 Sep 2010 07:34
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CLICK HERE This fella topped the Victorian sires list for a couple of years until his son took over.
And no, he's not a hybrid - that refers to unrelated strains - you can find greyhounds duplicated on both sides of the pedigree as close as 8 generations.
But there is an increase in vigour that comes from breeding less closely related individuals as opposed to inbreeding - and that's the ongoing benefit of the outcross - you can line breed back to strong elements in the pedigree in the following generation and still retain some of the vigour from the outcross in the previous generation - that is the following generation is not as inbred as it would otherwise be, thanks to the outcross.
Rob Tyler Australia (Verified User) Posts 5176 Dogs 64 / Races 113 09 Sep 2010 07:40
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Paul Dicks wrote:
Rassmussen has been done to death on Greyhoud-data.
Not unhappy to find a RasX in a pedigree, but wouldn't go out of my way to get one. JMO
Have to agree with Paul on this one...if it is there, great, but no way in the world would I use the Rasmussen Theory as the be all and end all.
Fast dog + Fast bitch from top family = BIG CHANCE...that is about the best theory I know of.
Don't read too much into this stuff above mate.........
Generally speaking, results from outcrossing are poor first generation.........not always, but generally.
And it's also dependant upon the quality used.............meaning that if the outcross is of superior quality, the chances of success in the dams homeland increases..............and decreases visa versa.
I'll let you decide upon each countires standing against the other............
But, the 'Bobniak' type of pedigree (bred 50/50) can be productive as a sire but it has to be mated right...............but really, this is the case with all matings/sires..... unless a dominant stud is present...........and there's really never ever that type of sire standing.
Linebreeding or breeding proven 'known' nicks is the answer................it's the big stick that helps you win the battle................and outcrossing plays a small part in it.
If you outcross your precious brood........you've made the outcross a big part..........50% a part...........that's far too big in Oz if you're looking to produce a decent racer.
But, if you've got a plan to re-invigourate your damline to produce females for brood production with outcrossing........then that a completey different story..........and group winning lists show that it has weight as a theme.
But at the end of the day..............it's the pedigree match-up that's improves the %'s................
So Darren should I expect that this breeding will produce better progeny given the dam sire was an import.
CLICK HERE The damline actually threw well to SC with other bitches, just not to Fancy Free. Maybe the nick was waiting a generation?
Darren McKenzie Australia (Verified User) Posts 1823 Dogs 96 / Races 105 09 Sep 2010 20:39
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Mick,
You'd be giving it every chance too.............shame that there's no 'Osti' in 'Collision' just to round it off..........but that can be for next time........
Your mating is 1x you tend to see more in the horsie game.........and it works super for them..........managed, reared and all that............it looks a beaut gamble...........good luck with it.
When I've got the 'group winners by outcrossed maternal sires' list up to date I'll post it............it makes it easy to see what 'might be'.... given the outcross 'pause' in breeding :)
Scott............you know I love a soap box :)
But I've got 1x more for you..........25x years worth in a nutshell...........
Inbreed your damline............mate it to an inbred outcross......mate the daughters back to inbred sires boasting inbreeding for the dams mothers family..........works good !!
...and leave all the other theories to others...... :) :) :)
Do you have questions about breeding theories? 
